Transcript - Jonathan Dumas

Rahbin Shyne: Thank you for listening to 365 Brothers, the podcast. I'm your host, Robin Shine. I am so excited that you are here listening to these amazing collection of brothers that I have curated.

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Follow us at 365 Brothers on Instagram. You can also find us on Facebook. Check out our website, 365brothers.com. We're going to have a conversation with Jonathan Dumas. This gentleman is doing something that a lot of people in my personal environment are dealing with right now, and that is career transition.

The economy has changed. I don't know about you, but I'm all up on AI and I can see going to have some changes in our workplace. And some of us who are over 50 are realizing that the way that we've always done things and the kinds of jobs we've done,

things are shifting. And so a lot of people in my peer group are either moving up into new positions that are challenging and having new skills, or they're just completely changing into new fields.

And so for that reason, it's really a privilege to talk to someone who coaches individuals in that process. Because for some of us, it's like, yeah, I just read it up and then I did that and then I just transitioned.

It was easy, but it's not always like that. So, Jonathan, I read your bio.

Jonathan Dumas: Yes.

Rahbin Shyne: Now, I know that you did a career transition. And what you experienced as you made that career transition,

you didn't say it was bumpy, but what you did say was that you wish there had been someone available like yourself. And now you provide that to others. So what career did you transition from?

And then to. What was it that made you realize there should be a coach for this?

Jonathan Dumas: Yeah.

Thank you so much for that question. I had a lot of transitions just growing up. I saw my mom hustle all the time. So I don't have background where I saw my mom have one job or like one thing.

She was always doing something else. And so I guess I probably internalized that. Always just trying to find that thing, that chasing that passion, that spark for me. But when I graduated college, I knew that the plan was to be a lawyer.

I ended up realizing that that was my mom's dream for me, not mine. And so I just went into this very messy road over the course of like 7 to 10 years trying to figure out what it is that I wanted to do.

And I stumbled upon organizational psychology and studying leadership and diversity and equity and all these different things, and doing people development training, HR recruiting,

but always was in the realm of like, helping people and seeing people thrive and get into that next spot. That was always a constant for me in any position that I held.

And so the last position I held, I got out of it because of the pandemic. And I always knew that I wanted to start my own thing, like doing some consulting work.

Coaching really wasn't on my radar until a friend of mine was a coach and started her own coaching practice. And I was like, oh, I'm already doing this in other roles.

I could do this full time. And it wasn't until like the last year, I would say where I found my niche is not necessarily helping people with a resume, even though I could do that, or helping people fix their LinkedIn, all that I can do that.

It's really that transition period and helping folks understand what is going on in internally that is preventing you from believing that you can experience career joy in this next transition to life.

And so that's where I. I've really thrived because that's what my experience is, and that's where I help people do I support them in doing that.

Rahbin Shyne: So it sounds like from your, your human resources experience, the things that you're aware of that go into choosing a job, did that play a role in your choosing this particular area to coach in?

Jonathan Dumas: Yeah. And because I'm an organizational psychologist, people always just hit me up for career stuff, HR stuff, whatever. And the common refrain that I just kept hearing is, man, like, my job sucks, but they don't leave or they stay there.

And there was a long list of things that I kept hearing from friends and clients that I was starting to pick up was that they knew something had to change, but they didn't know what.

And as I continue to dig deeper and research more on that, one of the things that folks were starting to say was that, man, I'm unhappy, but I don't know why.

And it really ended up being like, have you ever considered your values and who you are and what you bring to the workplace? And is that not lining up with the work that you're doing.

And over and over again, that just kept being something that I saw. So it was more of a mix of my own work experience, my own personal experience and transition and everything like that.

And then also seeing this as helping people connect those dots because it's wild to me cause I do it for a living. That folks oftentimes they're not considering values, they're not considering themselves, their story and how it contributes to what they are choosing to what positions they're putting themselves in.

And that's something I personally experience myself.

Rahbin Shyne: Can you help me?

Jonathan Dumas: Yeah.

Rahbin Shyne: Let me tell you something, short aside. I just recently hired a friend of mine, a coach. He, I think he was my second or third guest. I know him personally as well and he coaches around a particular modality of finding your strengths.

And it was so cool because my job, which to I used, I love teaching and long story short is our curriculum is in person but all online. And so everything I loved about teaching went away and I didn't know what to do.

And all I'm going to tell you is yeah, it was so great to work with the coach I worked with and find ways to get what I need out of my job since I'm so close to retirement and I'm not planning to go someplace else.

And I might, I just might hook call you up a little later anyway.

And I love hearing that you majored in organizational psychology. That also explains quite a bit. So let's dive in. My first question, what are your favorite words? And that can be a quote saying, metaphor or your favorite book.

Jonathan Dumas: Yeah. So I. Favorites are hard for me because it just depends on my mood. So right now I've been reading a lot of, I don't know what the genre is, but it's like African inspired anthologies or mythology fiction fiction books and stuff like that.

But there was a quote that just comes back every few weeks and it just reminds me of like the power of listening. So it's by Valerie Kaur and she's a civil rights leader, lawyer, so on and so forth.

And she said deep listening is an act of surrender. And I just think about that quote and I'm just like, how often am I just so quick to say something or I'm only listening and present so I can just say something or be right or something like that.

And I think there's vulnerability and true connection when you're trying to connect with somebody and listen to their story and hear them. And I try and do that in my coaching practice too.

It's been a really good practice for me to not be quick to give advice, but to honor and acknowledge the wisdom that my clients bring to the session. And also,

how do I listen to myself? What do I need? What my body needs? How am I kind to myself? And it can be really vulnerable. Just that deep listening and trying to hear and understand other people and even ourselves.

That's one that just. I led a training last July and this is something that just keeps coming back throughout the 9ish months.

Rahbin Shyne: I love that.

So my tagline at the end is to listen this to love.

And I had the privilege of doing some really deep training and communication. I would say that learning to listen has been the most rewarding skill I've developed as a grown person because it impacts all your relationships and I don't always like doing it same.

Jonathan Dumas: It's hard. It's really hard.

Rahbin Shyne: I just need you to hear me.

Jonathan Dumas: Yes.

Rahbin Shyne: Oh man. You mean if I listen to you and get you, then I may not even need to say anything because you're there yourself?

Jonathan Dumas: Yes. I mean, truly. It's wild. It's wild. Yes. Oh my goodness. That's funny.

Rahbin Shyne: So what is a significant person moment or event that either changed the trajectory of your life or had a significant impact on your life?

Jonathan Dumas: This is such a good question. And when I was reading this question, I was like, why does this moment keeps coming up? And maybe it'll make sense while I'm talking. But it was sixth grade and in California and I don't know where you are.

Robin, are you in California?

Rahbin Shyne: I am.

Jonathan Dumas: Okay.

Rahbin Shyne: Born and raised Long Beach.

Jonathan Dumas: LBC Long beach too. We'll talk more offline. I am down in San Diego. That's where I was born and raised. We have sixth grade camp. So I don't know if they do that everywhere, but went on sixth grade camp.

Okay. Amazing. Went on sixth grade camp. Got back after a dope trip in the mountains and everybody was leaving, everybody was taking off and I was there and I don't know how long I was waiting for my family.

I couldn't get a hold of nobody. Nobody was answering the phone. And I just remember like my 6th grade earth science teacher stayed with me that whole entire time. And I don't know how long she stayed with me, but she stayed with me.

And I remember just being alone and no, all everybody got picked up. Everybody was gone. I just remember just crying, just sobbing because nobody was there. And she was my science teacher.

I remember I'll fall asleep in her class and there's like a lot of at home stuff that was going on that I was just tired all the time. I thought she didn't like me.

I legit thought she didn't like me. She seemed kind of stern. I just remember her just allowing me to cry on her shoulder and she hugged Me and she just did not leave me.

And that has just been a moment that's stayed with me of again, just this reoccurring theme of like compassion and stuff like that. That's been one of those things where I'm.

I know she was tired, I know she was ready to go home dealing with 12 and 13 year olds for a week. But she stayed with me. And that is just something that has never left me.

I don't even remember her name because I was only at that school for a year. But that's never left me. And so one day, hopefully I can find her and tell her how much that means to me.

Because I tell the story all the time.

Rahbin Shyne: Really?

Jonathan Dumas: Yeah, like all the time.

Rahbin Shyne: How did it impact you in terms of how you relate to others or what. What you now see or what's now available to you? What changed after that event?

Jonathan Dumas: So middle school was probably like the roughest years of my life. Really rough. My parents had just split, so my stepdad and my mom split. It wasn't a good separation either.

We were staying with my. We didn't even have our own home. So we were. Me and my brothers and my mom were staying with my grandparents in a completely different city than when I was going to school.

And so we would have to wake up at 4 or 5 o'clock in the morning, every single morning. And I would have to take my brother to. We'd have to hop on the bus.

Cause my, My grandparents worked and then my mom was gone and so we had to take a bus to a trolley that then took us all the way to the city that we're still going to school in.

I don't know why we never switched schools. I think it was just at the point of where we were in the year that it just made sense to just finish it out.

But that time in my life was just so rough and I was just so lonely and so exhausted all the time. And I was having a hard time at that school too, because I went from a school where I literally went from first grade or kindergarten.

I knew everybody.

It was sixth grade, I moved in the middle of school and I was just alone. And this woman, I think that there it is. That moment was like encompassing how lonely I was, how I felt forgotten.

And this woman stayed with me and she just didn't leave me and she allowed me to cry and just cared for me. And I think how that shaped. Shaped the rest of my life is like, you just don't know what people are going through behind the scenes.

They might have this cool exterior. They might even be mean or angry or whatever, but you really don't know what people are experiencing behind the scenes. And that if you could just spare a smile or a little bit of time or whatever, you don't know the impact that will have on somebody's life.

She might have stayed with me for 10 minutes, 30 minutes, 45. I don't know how long it was. All I remember is that I felt cared for in that moment.

And that's. That's never left me. That's never left me. And I'm damn near 33 now, and that was, like, 20 years ago. You know what I'm saying?

Rahbin Shyne: So, yeah,

we hear all the time that it's the small things we hear all the time that these moments make such a difference. And yet, isn't it interesting that when we go through our life, we're still so quick to get so busy.

Jonathan Dumas: Yeah.

Rahbin Shyne: Still so quick to get so caught up in myself included. Let me tell you. I teach at a continuation high school. Every student who's there has something they've dealt with. That's why they're there.

And yet, I can tell you, 25 years in, I'm still, why didn't you do that? But why didn't you do that? And it's okay, hold on. Go back.

And so I really appreciate hearing that. The other thing is, I got to tell you, I can relate to that teacher. I would bet that a good portion of my students over the years would say I'm that student.

I don't even think she like me. Yeah,

she don't. I don't know. And then it's.

Can I. Yeah, yeah,

I can.

Jonathan Dumas: Yeah, it's so funny. Yeah. I, I. I don't even know why I thought that. Yeah, I was probably just being insecure, but. No, she was.

Rahbin Shyne: No, you know, look, this. Okay. But I'm gonna tell you right now, I. I cultivate that personality.

Jonathan Dumas: Yeah.

Rahbin Shyne: Because you know what it is? Some teachers, we want our lunch to ourselves.

Jonathan Dumas: Yes. Wait, Robin, do you watch Avenue, my friend? That's hilarious. Do you watch Avent elementary by chair?

Rahbin Shyne: You know what? I'mma tell you what I tell my family every time they ask me, it's too close.

Jonathan Dumas: It's too close.

Rahbin Shyne: I can't watch. Maybe when I'm retired. It's too close.

Jonathan Dumas: Oh, my God.

That is hilarious. There's just a part in there where he's like, why are you coming in here on my lunch? What are you doing? It's hilarious. Y'all need to leave.

And they won't. And they won't leave. These kids won't leave.

Rahbin Shyne: It's okay. All right, excluding your parents or guardians, people who raised you, aside from them, who is the first person to earn your respect? How or why?

Jonathan Dumas: Yeah, when I think of respect, I think of just somebody I just looked up to. It was Coach Sergio, my little league baseball coach. He's my coach for three, four, five, I don't know how long, but a majority of the time I, I played baseball when I was younger.

And the reason why is because he didn't look at people's. The things that you couldn't do. He saw the things you could do and encouraged you in those things. And when I was a little kid, I just could not hit the ball.

I couldn't hit the ball. But he knew that I was fast and he knew that those other kids couldn't throw or they were not going to be able to get the ball in time to catch me off base.

And so he's Jonathan, I'm going to teach you how to bunt and you're going to be the best bunter in, in the league. And I was, he taught me how to bunt and, and I got on base all the time, just like one of the highest base on base percentages in the league just by purely bunting.

But there was times where he's like, jonathan, you can't bunt. You gotta swing. You gotta swing hard,

as hard as you can. And I just remember a particular time where I, I closed my eyes and swung as hard as I could and I hit that ball so far and I just was so stunned.

I hit it. I was standing there. Coach Sergio just believed in me. He took me to my first baseball game. Yeah, I loved that dude when I was a little kid.

So coach, Coach Sergio because he just believed in me and I believed in all the other kids too, and just like things that they couldn't do.

Rahbin Shyne: Yeah, I hear you respect him for being a stand for each person's greatness, whatever that was.

Jonathan Dumas: Yeah, absolutely. I love it.

Rahbin Shyne: So now what insights from your career, from your profession? Because we've talked a little bit about what you do and how you've come to do it. What can you share with our listeners to help them get the most out of life?

Jonathan Dumas: I would say it's never too late to make a transition.

Sometimes when I'm talking to some of my elders in my family, they're like, dude, you just gotta just choose one. Why does everybody keep job up and figure it out?

But I think one of the things that I saw growing up, from my mom often and even my grandma, who's had the same job for literally all of my life, is that they come home so tired, they come home so drained, and they don't like what they do.

They just don't like what they do. It's. I just don't want to live that way. And my mom has told me, you could do anything that you want to go for it.

And so. But at the same time, she'll tell me, like, yo, don't stick to it, fam. And it's not like I job hop all the time, or it's not like I tell people, like, quit.

But I purposely use the word transition because a transition is purposeful, it's intentional. And you're taking time to examine what you really want in your next phase, in the next part of your career journey.

And so I think it's important for folks to know that it's not too late to make a transition. Never too late to make a transition. I think it's just deciding what is the.

Taking the time to make that next step and understanding why you're taking that next step, what is important to you is going to be really valuable in that transition.

Rahbin Shyne: So I'm pre retirement and I know I want to transition into being an artist. I'm very clear about that. But here's my question. What I found is that it's such a process to break away.

There's so much inner work to do. There's so much reflecting that's needed to really. And this is the question, like, I found it really valuable to get complete with different parts of the job, both that I liked and I didn't like, in order to get clear and create a space for what I wanted to do or what I wanted to do to show up in.

In your coaching is. Is that a thing? How much reflection is required or just a little insight on how you do what you do?

Jonathan Dumas: Yeah, I would say it's. It's very crucial. Like, actually,

most of my clients,

we hang out in the reflection part processing part unlearning part.

I would say somewhere from 60 to 70% at the front end. Because we have been told a certain way or doing things a certain way for so much amount of time that like to unlearn those things or think a different way.

And. And it's. It's a challenge, it's a discipline. And so I think sometimes folks can get uncomfortable with the process. But that's why I name it a Career journey. We're not just going on one destination, right?

There's different transitions that'll happen. And the evolution, the growth, the change, it's okay. And I think it just can be uncomfortable, right, because what tends to happen, and this is what I've talk to some of my clients about, is that, yeah, I keep going and doing this thing like going back to this job or have the same kind of boss or having the same kind of feeling.

It doesn't even have to be external. It could just be like this feeling that it's just, it's this ain't it. And I'm like, what have you stuck to the values?

Have you stuck to what you wanted? Those non negotiables, right? You want to be with your family, you want to be at home with your family, but you have a job that requires you to travel half the time or 25% of the time that's, that's at odds, right?

Because they're really focused on these things that kind of tell us that we're successful, that, that we've been told what success is supposed to be rather than defining it for ourselves,

rather than having a clear understanding of what is important to me and that being success. And I think even internally, I'm for myself, I'm trying to figure out. I asked a really good question yesterday, like, what is success to me now?

If it's not making all the money, if it's not the titles, if it's not that, what is success to me look like now? And I think I'm still trying to figure that out.

But as long as the things that I'm doing, the contracts that I take, the clients that I have that are not at odds with my mental health, my physical health or my relationships, because I love my wife, I love my family, I love my friends and stuff like that,

as long as those aren't impacted, then I think I can keep going until I'm able to define that. But I think some folks haven't gotten to that part yet. And so it does take a good amount of reflection and space to do that.

Sorry, long answer, short question.

Rahbin Shyne: But no, I love what you shared. I spent a lot of money and a lot of time doing personal development work and I love it. I live for that. And what I love about what you said was the reminder to define success for ourselves because we don't really do that.

And it also changes over time. In my 30s and 40s, success was putting away for retirement, like getting it. That was it. You know what I'm Saying those student loans done do this.

That's. That was success. Now success is fulfillment. And there are all kinds of others. Like, I don't have a family, so that's not one of those priorities. But my friendships, my half marathons, and I've spent a lot of time confronting, and still do confront what really matters to me.

Right. And I hear that as a backbone of the coaching you do, so that's really valuable. I'm so glad there are coaches out there like yourself who are doing this, because not everyone is interested in learning how to do it for themselves, and nor should they.

Jonathan Dumas: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rahbin Shyne: Let's switch into some history here. Your lived history, your life.

What apart from the Obama presidency? Because I got to tell you, there's certain answers that will come up over and over again, and I ain't taking anything away from the Obama presidency and the impact.

Right.

Jonathan Dumas: Yeah.

Rahbin Shyne: But which pivotal historical event from your lived experience has had the most impact on you and how has it shaped your perspective?

Jonathan Dumas: Yeah,

this is a tough one. And my undergraduate degree was history, political science, which I didn't think I was actually going to be using after I graduated, since I wasn't going to be a lawyer.

But what is interesting is that, honestly, I hate giving this my credit, but, like, the moment, like when 45 was announcing his presidency, Donald Trump was announcing his presidency, I think that shifted democracy for as we know it.

I think that that moment was historical in a sense, that this guy is a.

Everything that I learned about politics and political science in my degree was like, he's not that the person. He should not have a chance to win. And then he ended up winning.

And I was just. Just floored in the sense of my political science degree. Like, what I know about politics and all that stuff, but as a black man, not surprised at all that he got elected.

So I think that moment was the start of something in me that was like, all right, I'm going to use every ounce of this political science degree. I pay attention to politics all the time.

I'm in the know I'm obsessed and it hasn't changed. But that was just a moment that I'll. I never forget. And when I go and travel out of the states, people, did y'all really elect a, like a reality star as a president?

And I'm like, yeah, we did that. That happened here. Yeah,

yeah,

we did that. Yeah, we did that. So, yeah, yeah, that was a wild moment.

Wild moment.

Rahbin Shyne: I try to not have this show be political, but in some ways, how could a show Dedicated to the voices of 365 black men. Not. But I will tell you my moment.

So just staying inside of the Trump, like that whole thing. Yeah.

His announcement didn't do anything for me. I was like, oh, okay, yeah, all right. That's funny.

Jonathan Dumas: Yeah.

Rahbin Shyne: And then even his running was like, that's funny.

Jonathan Dumas: It was a joke. It was a joke. It was a joke. It was a joke.

Rahbin Shyne: And then he started getting traction. I was like, huh, that's interesting. That's interesting. And don't get it twisted just because I'm a woman. We didn't come to blows. But a good friend of mine, she was like, Ms.

Pro Hillary. And I was like, I don't even think so. That aside, though, I did still think that the standard would prevail. And I say all that because that moment, for me, inside of that particular moment in time was the election night.

I couldn't leave my house. I couldn't stop listening. Wait, what happened? Wait, what?

Jonathan Dumas: Whoa.

Rahbin Shyne: What state? Oh, wait, that's one of those swing states.

Jonathan Dumas: It just.

I'll never forget where I was. I was at a friend's house. Nobody was paying attention. Nobody cared. And I had my laptop out. I brought my laptop. Cause we were hanging.

I was just like, I. They didn't have a tv, nothing. I was like, nah, I need to pay attention to this. And when it happened, I just closed my laptop.

I said. I told my wife, I said, we gotta go. We gotta go home, man. I just. I. I don't feel like socializing anymore.

Yeah. Because, yeah, I could go on a whole diatribe about, like I said.

Rahbin Shyne: And I want to say, listeners, if you are pro Trump and you're like, I don't want to listen to her anymore. Don't fall into that. Don't fall into that. Because quite frankly, I ain't a fan of Biden right now either.

Jonathan Dumas: Yeah.

Rahbin Shyne: Actually, there's a name for people like me. I heard it on some show. We call it Double Haters.

Jonathan Dumas: That's funny.

Rahbin Shyne: I love the Constitution, I love the law, and I love being hopeful, faithful, and committed. So what is a moment or event that highlights your experience as a black man or in some way signifies your experience as a black man in the United States?

Jonathan Dumas: Up in, closer to downtown la, there's a. A nonprofit called Walk Good La. And what they started doing was they put it together, a black men's healing event. And it's yoga and meditation, sound bath.

And I'm like, I just started doing yoga in the last few years and meditation and stuff. Like that. So I was like, I'll give it a shot. I see. Yeah, this is cool.

I've been to a yoga event with them before, but I wasn't expecting to see a lot of black men go there. But it was sold out, it was packed out.

They were like, the next time we do this, we have to get a bigger venue. And it's continued to grow. It's literally all black men from all kinds of walks of life going to this event.

Moms are bringing their kids to it and all this other stuff, and they're just there to just do yoga, hang out, meet new people. And I said, this is probably one of the best things I've ever done for myself, ever.

There was an older gentleman there, he was actually a retired NFL player. And he was like, I've literally never done anything like this before. And he was just sitting there and absorbing all this information from us younger folks.

There was a 20something there, somebody who was in their 40s, somebody that he was in his 60s and stuff like that. He's like, I've never done this before. And my ex wife sent me this.

And I just remember being at this event, I'm like, this is what it's like to be a black man. We all look different, but we're all here to get some healing, talk about stuff, hang out, get lunch after.

It was just a really cool time. And I've gone a few different times, but that's just a significant time for me that I experienced growing up. I didn't see that, that I didn't know it existed.

And I thought I was by myself doing these yoga and all that stuff. There's literally so many people, so many black men in particular that enjoy yoga and want to do stuff like that.

So it was really cool.

Rahbin Shyne: What did you discover about black men at that event.

Jonathan Dumas: That multifaceted?

Sometimes I get caught up in thinking that we have to be super hard or stern or sometimes uber silly or goofy because that's what we've socialized to believe. We gotta be like docile to be safe.

But I think that going to this event, we're multifaceted. We could be complex and show up to heal and care for ourselves in a way that's again, purposeful,

intentional. Because the practice of yoga is really. It's not just hardcore stretching. It's taking your time and breathing and slowing down and paying attention to what's happening and it looks different for everybody.

Yeah, that's what I learned about black men that way.

Rahbin Shyne: Very cool.

Jonathan Dumas: Yeah.

Rahbin Shyne: If you could Spend eight hours with any other black man from any time. Who would it be and what would you do or talk about?

Jonathan Dumas: Yeah, so I will go on a walk with James Baldwin just to talk. Or I would train with Muhammad Ali. I couldn't make up my mind on what I wanted to do.

I think I just heard, like, snippets from James Baldwin, and I've tried to read a book. I think I just need to be in the right headspace to read his book.

But anytime I hear, like, a. An interview or something like that, I had to listen to it multiple times. The brother was brilliant. Like, just brilliant. Just breaking down. Like, just the social critique of the US and how it is.

I learned something new every single time. But also, he was super funny. So I feel like it would just be a fun conversation, just getting food, grabbing drinks, just going on a walk.

I don't know where we would walk or where we'd be at. Maybe New York or something like that. But. But training with Muhammad Ali, I think I just want to torture myself.

And also, he's hilarious. So I was just wondering what he would do to motivate me or how he would motivate me, but he had his own profound stuff, too. So, yeah, that dude was just a character, too.

So I would love to train with Muhammad Ali and see what tips and stuff I could pick up. Yeah, those two. One of those two, for sure.

Rahbin Shyne: Both of those choices say a lot about you. I have read some of James Baldwin books and love them, but it gave me no insight into who he was as a person in real life.

And I only recently. And when I say recently, last few years,

thanks to YouTube, saw some of his interviews, and so I know what you're talking about. What I loved about watching James Baldwin when he's interviewed is he is so unapologetic and breaking down.

He is. Let me just tell you how this works.

And it's almost like you're like, you gonna go there? You went there.

Jonathan Dumas: Yes.

Rahbin Shyne: And it's not only that he goes there, but it's the tone and the style with which he breaks it down. It lacks distinct disdain and is filled with insight, but it's a biting criticism that you swallow like it's.

Honey.

Jonathan Dumas: Yes. That's like a perfect way to put it. Perfect way to put it. Because there's sometimes where I'm. How in the world. How did you see that? How did your. How did you connect the dots in that way and formulate.

Formulate it in this way and communicate it this way in an Environment that wants you to fail. Like, you're on these shows and it's high pressure. Not in the sense of you're representing all black people.

Not that, but it's. I know that James Baldwin didn't want to look like a. A fool or anything like that, and he didn't at all. But I'm just. I'm projecting now, but it's just sometimes I.

I just get so blown away and fascinated by, like, people who can orate in that way, but you could tell that they've thought about it so much like you have just pondered this.

It's just. It's incredible. And I just want to. Not even. I just want to talk. Yeah. Just talk. Yeah.

Rahbin Shyne: Yeah. And listeners, if you're interested in hearing someone break it down before it was cool to break it down, you got to check him out on YouTube, just put in James Baldwin interview and see what shows up.

But back to what it says about you, that you didn't just say James Baldwin, but Muhammad Ali.

Also incredibly insightful, easy to look at as an athlete with cute things to say, with a way of poetically criticizing, critiquing, punching, poking at the other, but his ability to see into society and call it what it was.

And I think that's what I. As I'm saying, what I'm saying about the two of them,

what I see you value is straight, clear brilliance,

unapologetic.

Jonathan Dumas: Yeah.

Rahbin Shyne: Because that's both of them.

Jonathan Dumas: Yeah,

absolutely. Now, I. Yeah.

I have a little thing on here that reminds me of courageous and daring experimentation. That is my challenge for myself this year. There's another one about dreaming big dream, that big, audacious dream.

Like, all of these reminders to always stay true to me, to be honest, to be authentic, to do that thing that makes me scared, that terrifies me. And I think these two men did that all the time.

Like,

all the time. Yeah. It's just really inspiring and in their own unique ways, too. And so I think I'm trying to find my own unique way of showing up authentically, that way to speak truth no matter where I am.

And it doesn't have to be profound or biting or whatever. It just has to be the truth. I'm trying to find that. That voice.

Rahbin Shyne: Yeah. Yeah. That is indeed a life, a lifelong process, because as soon as you find it, you turn out, you look around and you're like, oh, my God, I've grown. And then you gotta find that authentic voice again.

Our signature question, Jonathan. If the United States was a woman with whom you could Speak whether she's a mother, lover, stranger, neighbor, friend. You choose that relationship.

If the United States was a woman, what would you say to her?

Jonathan Dumas: This is such a good question. Because, like, I'm trying. I'm.

I don't know if I would have a lot to say because the image that I get is somebody who is shallow, somebody who's vindictive, manipulative.

It's just, like, hard. It's just hard. It's just hard to know what I know about history and what we've done, what the US has done throughout the world, and try and want to talk to this person.

But I think that,

yeah, I don't know what I would. I don't know what I would say. Honestly, I don't. This is not the type of person that I would want to affiliate with.

It's hard for me to even be.

Rahbin Shyne: Switch it up on you.

Jonathan Dumas: Yeah, switch it up on you.

Rahbin Shyne: So you at home, you and your wife just had a great dinner and a great dinner. You're chilling. You're not ready to stream yet. You just finished up a good conversation.

Doorbell rings.

America is dressed in her red, white and blue. She is so happy, and she is like, hello.

Hi, I'm in the neighborhood, and I just thought I'd get some feedback. So I'm here. Talk. Actually, did I say talk? I'm here to listen. What would you like to say to me?

Jonathan Dumas: Okay, great question. This is hilarious. I think I'm caught off guard here, but I think I have a lot to say to you. But if I were to. To succinctly say it, I think that you find ways to insert yourself when it's convenient for you all of the time.

Like, all of the time.

And when you have opportunities to do right, when you have opportunities to stand by people and be just and equitable, you constantly come up short.

And I think that there is the Constitution, there is the preamble, there's the Declaration of Independence, these grand promises.

But when we look at the work that you've done, when we look at who you are, like the fruits of what you sow,

I only see the rich, the powerful,

and mainly straight white men have access to those things and actually do the things and live the way that they want to when we have a large majority of people that don't.

So I guess the feedback, I would say, is, are you true to your word?

Do these things matter to you, truly? Because if they don't, then I think that you probably should stop saying them over and over again as if they mean something to you?

Yeah, that's what I would say.

Rahbin Shyne: Hmm.

Jonathan Dumas: You look cute, though. That's. Oh, God, I love that.

Rahbin Shyne: I love that. That was perfect.

Jonathan Dumas: Yes. Oh, my God.

Rahbin Shyne: And as you were talking, I was literally in that scene, and I was imagining the United States responding, and I felt like.

I felt like she might go,

wow, that's a lot. Thank you so much. You know what? I'm gonna go get in the limo and go home and really think about what you said.

Jonathan Dumas: I'm gonna think long and hard about what you said. I'm gonna go home to my mansion and think long and hard about what you said.

Okay. I don't know why you stopped by. All right, bye.

Oh, my God.

Rahbin Shyne: Shame on me. Shame on me. Shame on me. Because for all I know, she went right down the street,

sat herself down in front of a fountain, and just was very reflective with the intention she could do differently. You know,

Too bad. I know history.

Jonathan Dumas: Yeah, too bad. No history. It's just tough. It's hard. It's hard.

Rahbin Shyne: I want to be faithful. I really do.

Jonathan Dumas: I do. I really do.

Rahbin Shyne: So not quite the same question as last. A little bit different. But here's what I want to know. Based on your experience and expertise,

what are you looking forward to for the United States in the future?

Jonathan Dumas: Yeah, that's such a good question.

So there's an ongoing conversation about millennials and Gen Zers not wanting to work, and it's just not true. Studies show that's not true. We can't let social media fool us overall, in general, Gen Z ers and millennials do want to work.

I think not. I think I know because I talk to them all the time, is that they want their work to mean something. They want the things that they do to be meaningful.

They don't want to spend tens and tens of hours do something that is just not impactful, that they feel like they're wasting away. And they don't want to just live to work.

And hence why there's transitions a lot that is happening. Gen Z ers and millennials, they won't stay at a job for super long. And so that actually excites me about America.

I think that that excites me because it's showing a shift in a change.

They want to be happier, like true happiness, like joyful. The happiness report just dropped recently, and the US wasn't in the top 20 in the first time since the report started.

I think in 2011. I think under the age of 35, it was one of the higher ones in the world of being unhappy in the US and so I think that there is a changing shift of wanting to be happy in understanding what happiness means.

And it's not just loads of money, a house, even if we could afford a house, which I don't know how likely that is, but it's just like what are the things that are going to bring me actually soul satisfying happiness?

And I think that shift is really encouraging because that means that if it's not in the market, then that people will create. That people will create companies that will allow that to take place.

And I know that's happening because I know literal startups that are doing it. I know people that are starting companies that are doing it. And that's what gets me excited.

People wanting to do things differently and they're willing to do the work to do it or to make it happen.

Rahbin Shyne: I think back to earlier when you talked about what you do, coaching people in transitions and career and employment and you mentioned how some of your older family members are like, yeah, do whatever, do what you like.

Yeah, do something good and then stay there.

Jonathan Dumas: Yes, yeah, yeah.

Rahbin Shyne: And I'm Gen X, early Gen X.

And one of the things what you're saying points to, because I'm not gonna, I'm fourth right here. I am one of these older folk who sometimes will go gen zers.

I don't even know. Yeah, should I go to Canada for my medical care? Because I don't know that they gonna pay attention. Yeah,

I know that's not all, but yes, you're right. There' gap generationally of expectation and because every generation, like I understand now at my age, I understand when I was younger and boomers would be like, how you going to do it like that?

Why are you doing that? Why you think it's okay to do that? Or you think you can just go do this, this, this. Yeah, yeah,

yeah. And so now that I'm the older generation,

one of the older generations, not the oldest.

Okay, just real talk. Okay, look, sometimes when I'm watching these interviews with young people on the news, like standard broadcast news, and the reporter will say something like, what are you going to do?

Like one that stood out in particular, they were reporting on the student loans and how they have to be repaid and because everybody thought when Biden was going to do this and Supreme Court knocked it down and anyway, so they interviewed this one woman and she's, I don't know what I'll do because I can't pay it and do what I love.

And my generation and older. Like then you don't do what you love. Yeah,

yeah,

you paid a bill.

Jonathan Dumas: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rahbin Shyne: But, but back to what you were saying and certainly hint to that is a redefining of values as a society. I think it's happened so fast that the older generations, we're like what?

Yeah, you want? And no kidding. Just two days ago I had a conversation with a friend of mine who is a little bit older than myself. Something was on. It could have been related to the happiness report coming out, but it basically was that millennials and gen zers are like,

why are we working out eight hour days and after lunch I'm full, like I don't think well. And he was like, what is this? Like you work?

He was like, then don't eat a heavy lunch, watch what you eat. But I understood and I was like, wait a second,

that is so old school, right? Like why is it that you've got to watch what you eat versus we know around the there there are developed nations that take a siesta, some version of that and maybe that's actually what's needed, maybe that's something we could grow into, but it's not our culture so we don't think of it.

All that to say.

I'm constantly reminding myself that I have no idea what is right for the future. And we think we know based on what worked for us. And in the past opportunities were so limited.

If you were a black person and you got a government job, yeah,

you got a job and they let you stay on until you retire.

Jonathan Dumas: Yeah, you got to keep that thing. Yeah, you keep it, you keep it. You don't go nowhere.

Rahbin Shyne: You don't go nowhere. But here's the thing that we forget. It wasn't safe to go someplace else in the 60s and 70s. If you get a government job, that means there are these rules and regulations that say John can't just fire you because he don't like that you wore afro that day or,

or he's got his nephew he wants to bring on and so goodbye you. And the reason those things were valued, I think we forget.

But not only do we forget when I say forget, I think maybe younger folks don't understand why older people feel that way. But also I think as older folks we've forgotten the circumstances that gave us those values and that circumstances change.

I'm amazed at the careers that are available for young people without college. I am amazed at what can be gleaned without a four year degree. And I'm certainly not anti four year degree.

But I am pro finding that thing that you love and going for it. There is definitely a generation gap in understanding that perhaps the pursuit of happiness does not mean the end of the American economy.

Jonathan Dumas: Yeah, it really isn't. It's so interesting you brought up the hours in the workday because the model of that was developed in the industrial period. And it's arbitrary. Right. It had to be argued between unions because it actually ended up being longer.

And so eight hours was the happy medium. And it hasn't changed since the 50s, I think it was. It could have been. So we're still doing models, work models that are based off of a system that's like at this point somewhere around 70 years old.

And when you think about technology and how much that shifted and the complete and utter intertwining between work and work and personal life. I think it's interesting, like when we talk about, oh, you gotta like work eight hours a day or you have to be in the office eight hour days,

eight hours a day. And I think that there is a place and a time for that where that's necessary. Right. There's jobs that require that. I would never argue that a nurse works part time at home.

That doesn't make any sense. They need to be with patients at the hospital. But there are jobs where you could do a hybrid. There are jobs where you don't actually have to work eight hours a day, where somebody actually can do it in three.

And if we think about the context of work in and of itself, when I go into a job, we're basically having a conversation about am I the person that has the qualifications to do the work that you need accomplished and if I'm able to do it sooner or shorter or whatever,

or I need accommodations to make that happen a little bit better. I don't understand why that's something that's debatable. You know what I'm saying? Like why is this an argument?

And oftentimes what's happening. And now I'm getting into my org psych nerd back. But the what's happening for managers is they don't actually know how to manage remote teams because how they've been taught to manage, not necessarily lead, but manage, is to monitor somebody in a workspace.

Are you doing what you're supposed to do? And they don't know actually how to lead a team. There's a lot more managers in the workforce than there are leaders. And that's the unfortunate part.

Right. But I think it's very possible, I think it goes Back to what you're saying. How do we adapt, how do we change? But all of this has happened so fast.

Shout out to the pandemic for expediting a lot of this stuff that was likely going to happen, probably slower, but. But for me, Hybrid is like the, the way to go.

Like for a lot of jobs that are out there, Hybrid is a good happy medium. As long as I'm doing the job, as long as I'm able to complete it, as long as it's not having negative impacts on the work, then I think why is it a big deal?

And if you're concerned about that, then have a conversation lead, engage with the people as human beings. Yeah, but that's just stuff that I'm like seeing out in the workforce.

I think that Hybrid is going to be the model that's settled on slowly but surely. But a lot of companies are still resisting it. But we'll see what you bring up.

Rahbin Shyne: And then I'm going to have one follow up question, then I'll ask the last question, which is your opportunity to ask me a question.

Jonathan Dumas: Yeah.

Rahbin Shyne: Is this conversation we're having right now really has me look closely at what's being paid for and the model that we have now. What we're buying is time. What a business is buying is the workers time.

And in buying workers time, you've got to manage and monitor because you've got to make sure you're getting the most out of their 8 hours, 6 hours, 12 hours time on the computer, whatever that is,

versus an alternative model that we do use in the arts and in certain technological fields. An alternative model is the product, the result.

If I can deliver the result you need in three hours,

why do I have to put in eight? What are you paying me for? Are you paying me for hours in front of you at your place of business? Are you paying me for a result?

And I have no idea like how that transitions or even if it's possible. I can see that with our growing technology, with quantum computing and at some point our general artificial intelligence, perhaps there will be a way to be compensated, to be valued for what's actually contributed versus time.

Jonathan Dumas: Yeah.

Rahbin Shyne: And I don't know that would ever change because if it's my money I want to see, I don't know, but it's. It just that came up in, in your conversation. I guess my follow up, my last question, because I always say I got a little wild card here.

Jonathan Dumas: Yeah.

Rahbin Shyne: What would you say? And only if something comes to mind, if it doesn't, we can Just move past it. But what do you see is the hardest thing about new careers for people?

I'm not even sure that's a clear question. No, because you're working with people. Yeah.

Jonathan Dumas: I would. Clarifying question. When you say new careers, is that somebody who's just like starting fresh or.

Rahbin Shyne: In the world today. Yeah. In the world of work today, where are people getting stuck? Because it used to be, and this is where I'm going, it used to be that you had to have a certain number of skills.

Go get a degree and then you've got those skills, go get a certificate and then you've got those skills. Is that still the big hurdle to a transition or is there something else?

Just because from your vantage point you're seeing something that most of us don't get to see?

Jonathan Dumas: Yeah.

I would say my biased opinion is that four year degree is becoming obsolete because what's happening is that students are graduating with these four year degrees but they don't have the expertise or the market is actually flooded with people that have four year degrees.

And so it's now becoming of who the connections, networking, stuff like that. It's probably, it's always been like that, but even more so now. Certificates, boot camps, all those different things, they're helpful.

Um, but now because that there are so much information and access to learning and doing things, there's a lot of different routes to getting into or getting a job. That getting a four year degree or spending literally tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars to go to a four year degree or getting a four year degree is actually slowing you down from entering into the workforce.

Sooner or there's just other work paths. So I would say there is an education bubble coming. There's like a cliff from my time at higher ed. There's like a cliff that's supposed to happen within the next, in the next 15 years.

We're already seeing it like a lot of kids are not going to college anymore. It's significant drop off. So what I am seeing about the part that folks are getting stuck on is finding that job.

The people that I work with, they're like, I have this skill, I have this skill. I have this many years. I feel like I want to do this, I feel like I want to do that.

It's just this overwhelm because there's so much access to find jobs that folks don't know where to look and they don't know how to narrow it down. And it also comes from a lack of understanding of self.

Right. Millennials were told that we go to college to get a good job, and then we went to college, have all this debt, and then we still have a hard time finding a really great job that pays all of our bills or something like that.

And so generalizing. But that's a lot of Gen Z or millennials experiences. And so they find the best job they can that pays them the most money, but it might be something that they're good at, but not necessarily something they're passionate about.

And so I think that the when I work with people, it really is. And going back to a question you asked earlier is reflecting and creating space to understand you in relation to work and getting a firm grasp on that, because once you do that, you feel significantly more secure and hitting apply in stretching yourself out of your comfort zone,

in learning a new skill or even not changing careers altogether, but having those hard conversations with your manager or internally to figure out, maybe I need to go to a different department or maybe I want more responsibilities or doing different things like that.

It's not always leaving a new leaving into a new role. Sometimes people really love where they're at. They're just plateaued and they need some help in that transition of figuring out where the next step is.

And that's transition, too, a lot there, hopefully. I answer your question, I really appreciate.

Rahbin Shyne: Some of the stuff you added. Like in particular, I can't remember whose book I was reading, but he talked about being there's an entrepreneur, but then there's also being an entrepreneur or like inside your company.

So anyway, no, that was really helpful. And I know that my listeners will have heard something that even if they're not even thinking about leaving their job, just to reframe, take a step back and look at does it align with your values?

And if it does, like, kudos. And where in those places that it does not,

what actions could you take, what might be available? And I know somebody who's a coach who could help you if you can't answer those questions. And as you all know, his links are in the show notes so you can reach out to him, check them out.

So I'm doing something new. And at the end of the interview, I love to give guests because I so here's why this happened. Because sometimes we stop the recording. I say, all right, thank you.

And then they say, hey, I want to ask you something. And then sometimes, at least these really interesting conversations, I'm like, instead of me, stop recording. And then they asked me a question like, oh, wow, I wish we had Recorded that.

I'm just going to ask you right now.

Jonathan Dumas: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that.

Rahbin Shyne: And it's optional. Like, you can say no, girl, you talked enough. Okay.

Jonathan Dumas: No, I already have one written down for you. I already have one written down.

Rahbin Shyne: Ask the question. Just let you ask me the question. Go for it.

Jonathan Dumas: Yes. So, Robin, what is bringing you joy this week?

Rahbin Shyne: This week? Okay. What is bringing me joy this week? Oh, man, I feel like I might embarrass myself. Bonkar. So on the other side of this tablet on the floor is a new standing table that I bought for home.

And I bought it because I don't even want to tell y'all that I just Jimmy rigged some stuff for my little setup here. Okay. This is sitting on a box and sitting on another box, and also males to get the right height.

And I did that for a while. And so I just took everything out of the room, did the deep cleaning, and now I'm about to put together this new desk.

And the reason that excites me is. Man, that's a really good question. It excites me because for the first three years of doing this podcast,

I set it up as a business. And so even though it has been a business,

I'm excited to be at a place where I recognize it and honor it as a business.

And while part of that is certainly about being intentional and having it pay for itself, but it's also that I'm to the point of what you do with people. Like, I've been doing a lot of inner work, and like I said, I've had a coach and really beginning to value what these conversations provide.

I think the first three years of doing the podcast, it was like, I want to know. I want to know. I just want to talk to black men. And I want it to be a contribution.

Jonathan Dumas: I really do.

Rahbin Shyne: Versus me truly appreciating what it would be like for someone who doesn't get to hear positive, uplifting black men talk about their lives, talk about their challenges, talk about what inspires them, talk about what they love.

That the value of it is greater than a Jimmy rigged setup.

So what lights me up this week is getting real.

Jonathan Dumas: Yeah. I love it. Yeah.

Rahbin Shyne: It's honoring.

Yeah. Shout out to Rachel Rogers and her book, you, Too should be a Millionaire. And it's not even about.

Not that I look, I hate when people do that. It's not about the money. Look, okay, I could always use more money. But it's.

It is about recognizing not only one's individual value, but the value of what you contribute versus seeing what you do as a good thing. And I, I know you can relate to that because I know you started off friends hitting you up.

Organizational psychology. You did your own transition. Hey. And then realizing, wait a second,

this is valuable, this makes a difference for people. So thank you for asking.

Jonathan Dumas: Yeah, yeah, I love that. I love that.

I think I've had that realization for myself too. I. I've approached my work completely differently this year and it's because I just feel like,

no, I am a business owner. No, I am a podcast host. And I'm really good at what I do. Unapologetically, like, proud and confident and self assured that I'm good at what I do.

And so why not honor it? Why not step into that fully? And so I, I know that it can make a change. So that's dope. That it's like, that's something that you're seeing this week and it's exciting you.

And that, that table, that standing desk is, I think, a physical manifestation of that. That's dope. I love it.

Rahbin Shyne: And it, it redefines the room, actually told someone, yeah, I'm sitting at my studio and I don't. And I never called it my studio because it was, it, it's where I record, but it just wasn't that space for me.

And I think we so value experts,

that we think experts are someone outside of ourselves. And there's a hesitancy to own our own expertise and really identify ourselves as an expert wherever, Whatever that is. Like, whatever that is.

And anyway, I'm so excited that we had this conversation. I really feel like one of the themes of it for anyone who's listened is self reflection, self awareness and self empowerment.

Right. Get a little coaching when you need it.

Jonathan Dumas: Yes, exactly. Exactly. Come on now.

Rahbin Shyne: Yes, absolutely. Like I said, I just dropped some money on a coach myself. And I hope that my life will always include turning to those who have expertise who can help me.

Because why struggle when there's somebody out there who's an expertise? And I know we can't all afford it. And let me tell you something. I've learned a lot through YouTube for stuff I didn't to pay for.

Jonathan Dumas: Exactly. I have a sliding skill. And then I also try and provide as much like free resources as I can because there's more black male coaches, but there's not a lot of black male coaches.

And I'm certified and I'm working on getting my credential in the next, like, few weeks too. And when you go down and scroll down that list. There's not a lot of us and it's not the same as therapy, but similar to therapy in that, in that there's a stigma around it.

It's like, why would I need to hire somebody to help me get a new job or train me, like to work out. And I always put it this way, it's if I have a goal of putting on 20 pounds of muscle, I could probably do that and do all of that research and do it myself.

But. And I've done this before and it took me like a year and a half to do this.

But if I had the funds to hire a coach, if I were to do it again, I would hire a coach because they're going to put together the meal plan for you, they're going to hold you accountable, they're going to put all that stuff and everything in order for you.

So all you got to do is do the work. And I think it's just really valuable. But I again, I try and provide as many free resources as I possibly can.

So you can find me on LinkedIn.

Rahbin Shyne: Tell them where to go.

Jonathan Dumas: Yeah,

yeah, you can Find me on LinkedIn. Jonathan L. Dumas and I actually have a career journey map and email course that I offer for free which basically walks people through this self reflective journey over the course of five to six weeks.

Absolutely free. And I provide like a workbook and everything like that. Yeah, absolutely free to provide to folks just by joining my email list because I just want to support and provide resources to people for them to thrive because I literally love that.

Rahbin Shyne: All right, y'all, so you know where to go. Go check him out. Hey, Jonathan Dumas Dot com. Get that free. Get those free resources, connect and if you know you're ready for a coach, reach out to him.

Jonathan, it has been a privilege at the end of an interview. As I've spent all this time talking to someone, I'm always left with a particular.

I don't know why that wanted to go off. And I'm always left with a particular impression of each brother. And for me, who you are is wind. And I say that because you know that song, you are the wind beneath my wings.

Yeah, like I just see you seriously, like, you are the wind that's getting people to where they want to be higher up than they are when they meet you. So thank you for being the wind.

Jonathan Dumas: Yes, appreciate you. Thank you so much.

Rahbin Shyne: Thank you, thank you for listening to 365 Brothers the podcast. I'm your host, Robin Shine and thank you so much for listening. Don't forget, if you haven't followed us, make sure you do follow us at 365Brothers on Instagram.

You can also find us on Facebook. Check out our website, 365brothers.com and remember,

to listen is to love.